Among Kathy Stinson‘s 40+ books are the classic Red Is Best, the award-winning The Man with the Violin, and three biographies about outstanding women. She has enjoyed meeting with readers, always dressed, in every province and territory of Canada, the US, Britain, Liberia, Korea, and will soon in the UAE.
Big and small, short and tall, young and old—Every BODY is different! This beloved fixture in libraries, classrooms, and at-home story times since its original publication in 1986 has now been updated to reflect current understandings of gender and inclusion, which are also showcased in brand-new, vibrant illustrations by Melissa Cho.
Interview by Isabel Jones
Isabel Jones (IJ): The 2021 edition of The Bare Naked Book is an updated version of the same title from 1986. Can you tell us about your concept for the book and the reception of the first edition which was considered quite daring for a children’s book at the time as it frankly showed and talked about naked bodies?
Kathy Stinson (KS): The original impetus of The Bare Naked Book was the delight that kids take in their bodies, every part, and the curiosity kids have about parts that are different from other people’s. I also remembered how fun it was when my son had a book about animals, for instance, which said, “Here are the cow’s eyes. Where are your eyes? Here are the rabbit’s feet, Where are your feet?”
The original Bare Naked Book was well received. Adults appreciated that it was frank about naming body parts and it found its way into many homes and onto lots of book lists related to personal safety. We did get some criticism about using “vagina” from people who wished we’d used “vulva” or “labia.”
Kids really liked the book too. They’d take it behind the shelves and giggle. If I shared it with school groups, they thought it was hilarious, and sometimes “gross” — a great opportunity to talk, as matter-of-factly as the material was presented in the book, about why they were reacting as they were.
There was resistance too, of course. Some people didn’t think it was appropriate for kids. Some schools chose to put it on the shelf for the parents. They didn’t want to be responsible for putting it in the hands of children, preferring to let parents decide if their kids should read it. This may, unfortunately, have kept it inaccessible to kids who most needed the vocabulary the book offered.
IJ: Awareness of diversity and identity has changed since that time, and as you say in your Author’s Note, you realized that many children would not find themselves in the illustrations of the book. What was your process in updating the words and pictures? Did you invite input from cultural or diversity consultants? Did you and Melissa Cho collaborate on the vision for the illustrations?
KS: I had been thinking for a while about aspects that could stand to be updated. Then I received a thoughtful email from a parent reading the book with her kids who wished for greater representation of gender and racial diversity. I shared the email with my editor at Annick Press and they readily agreed it was time to redo it. The team at Annick was more racially diverse than it had been in the 1980’s when the original version was published, and it seemed only right that the author-illustrator team should reflect a similar diversity. I have not met Melissa Cho or communicated with her directly, but Annick did ask me to provide suggestions for what should be included in illustrations and they involved me in discussions at various stages in their development.
During the editing stage I came to understand the need to shift language in the area of ability diversity. Instead of “eyes that see and eyes that don’t”, for example, how much better to use positive language: “eyes that see and eyes that are blind”. Blindness is a difference, not a negative.
j wallace skelton was brought in as a consultant for pages related to gender. The whole team spent many hours discussing how best to approach it, to be accurate and most inclusive as possible, of intersex and transgender people, for example, and still be as matter of fact as we were first time around. For a while we were caught up with how to include physiological variations, matters of gender identity, and which of the many words that apply to genitals we should use. At one point in trying to cover intersex and trans, the text lost its easy flow, and I was terrifically pleased when at last I landed on such a simple way of saying just what we all felt needed to be said to fulfill our intention to be more accurate and inclusive.
Some adult readers have thought using only the word “genitals” in 2021 was a step backwards from the original, which referred to “penises” and “vaginas.” But we now understand that to say “Penises. That’s for boy’s” and “Vaginas (or vulvas or…). That’s for girls” is not accurate. It excludes kids born intersex or who are anywhere along their trans journey. I think “genitals” provides a word that can work for any child who needs a word to tell someone if they have a sore or an itch in that area, or if they’ve been inappropriately touched by someone or have been asked to do inappropriate touching.
IJ: The Bare Naked Book was challenged when it was first published, as is this version, perhaps for different reasons. I looked at a selection of online reviews for a quick survey of public opinion and was surprised to see several readers declare this is not a book for children. What is your response to readers who are uncomfortable with your book? Is the discomfort held primarily by adults? Have you experienced children objecting to the content? During my years as a children’s librarian, I noticed kids sometimes feeling they needed to read frank physical books on the sly, but they were always keenly interested.
KS: Some adults might be uncomfortable with the book because they simply believe it’s inappropriate to discuss nude bodies with children. While a parent has a right to decide what books to read with their own children, no parent has a right to decide what books other children will have access to.
Other adults might be uncomfortable with the book because they’re still in early stages of learning what the increasingly public talk about gender identity and fluidity is all about.
If they’re not comfortable even with explaining to their kids or students why they’re uncomfortable, it’s probably best they don’t take on the book with kids, and risk teaching kids that bodies are something to be uncomfortable about.
Because there is a wide range in how far along people are in the understanding of gender diversity, we tried to leave room, in the text and illustrations, for parents to talk with their kids as explicitly or as vaguely as they’re comfortable, or as teachers are, aware of the sensibilities of the communities where they work, in reading the book with their students. There’s room on one page, for example, to talk about transgender mastectomy, if someone chooses to, or to just say something like “it looks like that person had an operation” if that’s more comfortable for them.
IJ: The session you are participating in at the festival is “Banned: On Diversity, Censorship, and Children’s Books”. This is such a complex topic. Books may be banned because institutions are offended by their content or wish to cater to the demands of their users. Or perhaps the values that authors display in their personal lives can create a distaste for their work. What are your thoughts on answering the demand to ban books? Are there some cases where it is worthwhile to do so? Who decides what readers have access to? Does banning imply that readers cannot be trusted to make appropriate decisions about their own reading choices?
KS: I think that resistance to certain books, the wish to ban them, often arises out of fear of the unknown, of the “other,” and out of ignorance. Fortunately, many libraries and schools have policies in place to deal with challenges to their collections. A parent can’t just swoop in and say, “I don’t think this book should be here so take it off your shelves.” A first requirement before someone can challenge a book is that they have read all of it. It’s the job of schools and libraries to provide access to a wide range of books.
Unfortunately, some individuals who choose books for collections will hide their personal biases against books on certain subjects behind “I have a limited budget. I can only buy so many books…” Not outright banning, but a failure to do their job nonetheless.
Should some books be banned? Hate literature, of course. It is banned, it’s against the law. But who defines hate? It can’t be an individual or the person at the border who decides which books get across or not.
I believe, perhaps naively, that education is the answer to so much of the ignorance and fear driving book banning and challenges. Unfortunately, there are people, too many recently, who choose ignorance.
I had another picture book published during the pandemic called The Lady with the Books. It was about Jella Lepman who started the International Board on Books for Young People (IBBY) which still continues its mission today. She witnessed book banning in a big way during the second world war. Her vision was to bring children and books together, recognizing the importance of children’s books as a means of promoting international understanding and peace. She says, “If the war is really over, if one is to believe in peaceful coexistence, the first message of peace will be these children’s books.”
I don’t know if any of my books have been outright banned, but they’ve definitely been challenged. Let me end with a favourite quote on the subject. “The ‘This book will turn your kid trans’ crowd really needs to start explaining why I am not, in fact, a very hungry caterpillar!”